Vatican publishes papal primacy document aimed at ‘a reunited Church’ (2024)

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1. Trying to convert all Catholics into becoming Catholic anti-Catholic bigots simply will not work. A lot of Catholics like being Catholic just fine.

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   • So true. And some of us even love being Catholic! 🤓

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2. Is Pope Francis going to Loost all of Christ’s ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ 2000 years of papal bindings? Simply letting all Christians choose which Apostolic Successor Bishop they individually choose to follow seems to be the best ‘Ecumenical’ plan at this stage of Ecumenical disunity game. We will simply have the papacy as a ‘Queen of England’ styled, no power but symbol of false unity, papacy.

   “No Salvation outside the Catholic Church”
   “Catholic anathema only damns Catholics to hell. No Papal Church bindings to sin affect the Protestants, who are outside the Catholic Church!”, a fellow Catholic told me. I replied, “Well then it is better for me and my family to become Protestants. Then Papal Catholic anathemas cannot damn me or my family to hell. We will just sneak into Mass for the Eucharist, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation, as Protestants”. “No! No! No!, If you leave the Catholic Church you are automatically anathematized and go to hell”, my Catholic friend responded.

   Before Vatican II, we were taught that all non-Catholics went to hell. Along comes Vatican II and Ecumenicalism. All of a sudden I am hearing that the Pope no longer ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ binds Protestants to his Christ Commanded Authority over them.

   In Catholic teaching, the Church, using Christ’s ‘Keys to the Kingdom’, binds even missing days of Holy Obligation as Mortal Sin! So, obviously, Catholics with fallen away Catholic Children, would be better off to tell their fallen away Catholic Children to reject our Catholic Pope as Martin Luther did. Then no ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ papal bindings to Mortal sin have any effect on them. Then have your fallen away, now Protestant, children simply sneak into the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Catholic Mass on Christmas and Easter. The Church teaches that all Protestants go to heaven through the Catholic Church anyway. You know, take all the good from Jesus, and reject all the ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ Catholic Pope stuff that can damn your children’s souls to hell.

   I would think that Justice towards Catholics would demand that Popes simply, ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ bind and loost, equally upon all people, Protestant and Catholic alike, who go to heaven through the Catholic Church. If Pope Francis is worried that Popes, ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ binding all people seeking Salvation through Jesus equally, might damn too many Protestants to hell, there is another option. Pope Francis can simply make all papal ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ bindings, optional and not binding up Catholics, as they have done for the non-Catholic world. This way the Catholic Church’s horrendous injustice against Catholics, by the Church not ‘Keys to the Kingdom’ binding everyone else in the world, except for Catholics, will go away.

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   • Does knowledge make us culpable? If so, is it possible to loose knowledge in order to become less culpable?

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3. At first glance it appears feasible to presume two separate functions of the Holy See, one as patriarch of the Latin Church to other as primatial for sake of unity. Although the pattern of equivalency between simple patriarch [there was reason that Pope Francis used the word patriarch since his demeanor had been to democratize, although no Pope has been as despotic within the Latin Church] of Rome as coequal with other patriarchs. The term itself Latin Church is a misnomer because the bishop of Rome, the Chair of Peter instituted not by man rather by Christ, invested universal authority of all Christianity attested to by the Church Fathers including Polycarp and Ignatius. That truth of our faith was not the alleged product of the historical circ*mstances of Vat I, presumed by Pope Francis and companions.
   The martyrs and their companions, we recall Josaphat Kuntsevych in the East shed their blood in defense of the universal character of the Church centered on the seat of Peter in Rome, the Apostle Peter’s magisterial authority. Whereas Francis and his companions give indication, as they had from the start to liquidate that institution.

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4. Hahahaha!…..what with this papacy, am pretty sure any patriarch offered the keys themselves to the Vatican would turn it down…unity from a papacy who alienated the entire continent of Africa, as well as the Orthodox and Coptic world and Eastern Catholics, and even the larger protestant denominations…hahahaha! They wouldn’t touch it with a 10ft pole, guilt by association…this is hilarious! It’ll take a major turnaround in Rome before any other Churches or churches risk being associated with Rome, and a LOT of time showing Rome can be trusted, even if the pope volunteered to demote himself to associate pastor.

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5. Synodaling is ambiguous enough to lead the Catholic Church to Lambeth which says: “My will be done.”

   Ut Unum Sint (“That They All May Be One”) is the prayer of Our Lord to the Father just before Gethsemane, where Our Lord prayed: “Not my will, but Yours be done.”

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   • Good insights, dear ‘GF’. The actual texts are also very illuminating:

     John 14:23b/24a – “If anyone loves Me they will keep My word and My Father will love them and We shall come to them and make Our home with them.”

     This is the key that supports a correct exegesis of John 17:21a, roundly overturning universalist & other heterodox interpretations.

     In a literal translation of John’s Greek text it reads:
     “That all one may be as Thou Father in Me and I in Thee, that also they in Us may be.”

     The way that Jesus is in The Father is by His total obedience to The Father.

     Thus the essence of the unity Jesus calls us to is unity with all who lovingly obey His commands. THAT is what welcomes Him & The Father into our personal & collective lives.

     Theologically this can be defined as ‘sympathetically resonant ideoenTheism’ through loving obedience of God’s instructions.

     Basically, God knows all those who love God because they obey Him. These are those who Jesus calls to be one with one another. Those that Paul called: ‘The Israel of God.’

     The first Pope teaches us, in 2 Peter 2:1 – that, as in the past, we too will have false teachers insinuating their disruptive views.

     Yet, The WORD OF GOD has stood, is standing, and will stand, eternally.

     Keep praying everyone; love & blessings in KING Jesus Christ, from marty

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6. Christian unity is something to be hoped and worked toward. And, the above intro to this consultative exercise sounds generally promising and cautious, and surely out of my league. So here are just some broad-perspective questions from the back bleachers, while waiting to read the entire “study document” (the link comes up blank on my machine).

   FIRST, such Christian unity is needed in the face of BOTH disintegrative Secularism in the West and natural religions across the globe—especially resurgent Islam which has twice as many members as all of Protestant ecclesial communities combined.

   SECOND, the reference to SYNOD 2024: while “not-a-parliament” is the synod still a precursor-parliament, like the consensus techniques within non-Western Islam—ijma and ijtihad—which are neither bound by past consensus nor are binding on the future. Provisional, and not unlike fluid process theology…What might such a pluralist leveling and possible cultural (?) congruence/ convergence actually mean? The “fraternity” of Christianity in both a collar and a turban?

   THIRD, does the working document begin to use INTERCHANGEABLY the terms (Orthodox) “church” and (Protestant) “ecclesial communities”—an essential distinction in Ut Unum Sint and retained in usage from the clarifying Second Vatican Council Documents?

   FOURTH, the references to historical and cultural CONTEXT: so are the points explored in the study document to be understood within the context of Ut Unum Sint, or are the clarifications in Ut Unum Sint now to be understood as only provisional within what is already a more pre-emptive dialogue? …And, apart from the papacy, what about the directly related, individual, and personal responsibilities of EACH Catholic bishop as a successor of the apostles? How does Apostolos Suos (1998) come into play, prior to national and continental conferences?

   FIFTH, curious, here, about the expressed “relation of infallibility to the primacy of the Gospel”…when it is the Gospel, itself, that identifies the role of the papacy within the living Tradition. And, is there clarity on Vatican I’s retained a distinction between papal primacy of jurisdiction versus doctrinal infallibility–not of the solitary person but of the Church/papacy in its definitions (!) of “doctrine concerning faith or morals.”

   SIXTH, the primacy of the book is also an Islamic premise—“the word made book [Qur’an] versus “the Word made flesh” (John 1:14). Not much margin there or in Protestant sola Scriptura for a Church that is not of the book, but clearly sacramental and even Eucharistic as the Mystical Body of Christ.

   SEVENTH, the reference to ANGLICANS and their synods…not to put too fine a point on it, but which Anglicans? Yours truly recalls reading a letter to an editor wherein an Anglican reader roasted Catholic efforts at dialogue: “we divided Anglicans don’t even know who we are.” This was in the 1970s!

   EIGHTH, about some kind of autonomy, and then the reference to the MAGISTERIUM: does this refer to the inborn and universal Natural Law and to moral absolutes—which now are explicitly (!) folded into the Magisterium? And, about which the Church [however redefined] is neither the “author” nor the “arbiter” (Veritatis Splendor, 1993, nn. 115, 56, 95).

   SUMMARY: Yes, to renewed Christian unity. But, what is the irreducible difference between a Church synod and a synodal church—in possibly lower case?

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7. As said at first glance it appears feasible to presume two separate functions of the Holy See, one as patriarch of the Latin Church to other as primatial for sake of unity. Although not during this current pontificate, though needless to say the effort toward unity, or what form of unity will be prolonged. In that context the question is what is unity? Meaning whether we’re seeking a limited form of cooperation or full compliance with Catholic doctrine.
   The first form is compatible and good, as experienced among Christian bodies in Africa where there was mutual support while each body retained their message. That would require less effort, we already cooperate on different levels. Although in instances there were doctrinal infractions, example posting abortion services in Catholic facilities. To what degree can cooperation be improved absent betrayal of the faith?
   The other form of unity,full compliance with Catholic doctrine, requires conversion. Actually our mission is to proselytize, to present the faith in its finest sense. That is the unity Christ envisioned for the world. A danger in working toward a lesser form of unity mainly cooperative is the surrender of the original mission to have one baptism, one faith. A synodal process can be a conversion process with a more convinced, faithful leadership. Discussion can have positive effect, perhaps a new platform for conversion.

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8. “The dicastery concludes that “growing synodality is required within the Catholic Church” and that “many synodal institutions and practices of the Eastern Catholic Churches could inspire the Latin Church.”

   I hope we (Eastern Churches) will stay away as long as ‘Fiducia’ and other unspoken but acted heresies are there. I am very concerned though. PF is desperate “to rule them all” or better to say those who are behind him (his worldly friends). This is the only reason for what he is doing.

   If the Eastern Orthodox Church’s hierarchy swallow this bait the monastics and most faithful will stop being in communion with them. We have been through this before – our theology of ecclesia allows us to do this. “You should not pray together with heretics.”

   As for “Eastern synodality” which the Vatican continues to wave as an excuse for all this mess, we do not have “synodality”, we have “sobornost” (“togetherness”). When the Russian Orthodox Church had its most revolutionary Council, just before the 1917 revolution, it was gathered to solve the most pressing problems like the election of the Patriarch and organization of parishes. We had laity, priests, bishops and monastics. Laity constituted half of the council, I think. All theological problems could be decided/voted by the bishops only. Laity would vote for non-theological, practical things. Most importantly, the Council did not try to invent “the themes”, they presented themselves. For example, in 1918 many of those who participated in the first part of the Council, were martyred and so the Patriarch who any second could be arrested, had to work out to whom to pass his responsibilities and so on. Or how to respond to the expropriation by the state of the liturgical (consecrated) vessels.

   By 1919, the absolute majority of participants were prosecuted, most clergy and monastics murdered.

   I said all this simply to show, as an Eastern Orthodox, how pathetic that “Synod of Synodality” is.

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9. I believe we’re slowly getting closer to a Catholic/Orthodox reunion. Next year it’ll have been 1700 years since the Nicean Council. The Creed states that we believe in “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church”. One means 1 true Church, and One means 1 unified Church. The Orthodox aren’t One because they aren’t in communion with the One Church. Some aren’t even in union with each other.
   Orthodox Churches are Holy, Catholic and Apostolic with 7 valid Holy Mysteries (Sacraments), but they’re not One. Unlike the Catholic Church, they’re sadly missing one core point of the Nicene Creed. It’ll be 1000 years this century since the 1054 schism. May we all be One soon.

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10. The fact that this pontificate is proposing a vision of the papacy as the sign of unity among Christians is risable at best. Pope Francis has done nothing but sow division in the Church. He pits groups against one another in a vindictive manner and, in my mind, has become a sign of disunity.

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11. Great idea guys…let’s take suggestions on ecclesial unity from the dying “mainline” Protestant churches, the always in-fighting Eastern Orthodox (who aren’t even in communion with one another) or the always dividing decentralized evangelicals. The majority of Christians are Catholic. And because of the papacy the majority of Christians are united.

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    • Plain truths so rarely acknowledged. Well said.

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12. It seems like just another addition to the listening church or the church of anything goes

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13. I’ve labored under the misconception that councils were infallible. I can think of one deeply conditioned by historical circ*mstances.
    Having worked for over a decade in an Ivy League ecumenical theological enterprise I never once noticed an interest amongst the protestant brethren in a reunification with the Roman Catholic Church. Nor did I witness any earnest love for Roman Catholicism from those self-proclaimed Roman Catholic.
    When I was a young lad in Catholic school in the late fifties and early sixties it was explained to us that the Ecumenical Council was going to be an effort to reunite the protestant “churches” to the One True Church. We prayed for the success of “the” mid-century council every day. The prayer card had a picture of John XXIII on the front.
    Someone please provide specific examples of the protestant communities adjusting their practice to conform to the truths of the Roman Catholic Church?
    History will look back and weep, as faithful Catholics do this day. The heresy of our time is ecumenism — and the cornucopia of scandalous error it has brought forth.
    The ecumenical dialogue has been nothing but duplicity from the outset. Apparently it is replacing Holy among the four marks of the Church. The men responsible for this decades long deception bear an enormous guilt.

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    • James: The Anglican Ordinariate would be an example.

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      • Did the Anglican Ordinariate essentially exist as the well known Anglo-Catholic current of Anglicanism before the mid-century council? Does the Anglican Ordinariate exist because of the existence of Roman Catholicism or because those who constitute the Anglican Ordinariate could not digest a female clergy and episcopate? How will the Anglican Ordinariate digest future developments in an ecumenical enterprise formally recognized as Roman Catholicism?

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        • Just a mention that Ive heard some Anglicans identify themselves as “Catholic and Reformed ” as opposed to every-day Protestant. But I know that varies.
          I wish we had an Anglican Ordinariate parish nearby.

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      • Also the Uniate Churches, all relatively small but about 20 in number, including the Melkite, Maronite, Ruthenian, Romanian, Coptic, Malabar and others: https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/uniate-churches.

        My recollection is that Pope Benedict XVI enabled (in 2009) the Anglican Ordinariate (below) partly because meaningful reunion with the Anglican ecclesial communion had been unilaterally put out of reach by their invalid “ordination” of female bishops, ever since 1989.

        Anglicanorum Coetibus: https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus.html

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14. James, I agree with you that the heresy of our time is ecumenism but let us make a distinction between pre and post VII definitions of it. Before VII, ecumenism meant reaching out to non-Catholics in an uncompromising manner in order to bring them into the fold for the salvation of their soul. After VII ecumenism meant incessant, unproductive dialogue and an acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the Protestant (various!) construct. Your praying as a child for the success of the mid-century council everyday is EXACTLY where this redefinition took place. So yes, ecumenism as defined and executed today is the heresy of our time.

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15. In the 1970s the majority of Protestants supported abortion, but when they witnessed the persistence and consistency of Catholics on the matter vast numbers changed their mind and joined the cause. To this day they credit the leadership of Catholicism. This was true ecumenism. Now Francis is dedicated to its destruction through lowest common denominator pseudo-religion.

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    • As in Genesis 11:4, the lust to: “make a name for ourselves” has lost none of its fire?

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16. Synodalism is not an article of faith.

    It makes no sense to need to immerse the primacy of the Holy See in anything as on its own it already was given to witness the Communion.

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17. Ecumenism, this principle of promoting unity among the world’s Christian churches, is both a complex and multifaceted concept. I agree with the article that it involves a commitment to dialogue and understanding across denominational lines, recognizing fully that while there are doctrinal differences, there is also a shared belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is that single belief that binds us to this mission of ecumenism.
    The best approach emphasizes a respectful and supportive role for the Church, one that leads by example rather than by criticism or judgment. This perspective aligns with the view that actions often speak louder than words, and that living out one’s faith can be a powerful testimony to others. It also acknowledges the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding individuals to a deeper understanding of the gospel, suggesting a patient and discerning approach to religious instruction and conversation. Such an approach can foster a more inclusive and compassionate
    community, united by common faith and purpose.
    I see no reason to demean or shun ecumenical efforts. Rather, I believe we should stand faithful as Jesus’ disciples and allow the Holy Spirit take care of the role of conversion.

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